Leena Manro  0:00

Welcome to up to so good, the podcast that unlocks the secrets of creating a purpose driven business so we can all make this world a better place. Come join the conversation. Hello and welcome to up to so good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. Our next guest is an all purpose favorite. Her name is Christy O'Leary, and she's ahead of decade impact. And Christy is somebody who designs impact strategies for businesses, but she really helps share how purpose and profit can go hand in hand. Also in this episode, we're going to talk a lot about B Corp. So if you are a business owner or a business leader who is interested in becoming a B Corp, or as a consumer, wanting to know more about what is this whole B Corp thing, then this episode is definitely for you enjoy. Welcome to up to so good the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'd like to introduce you to my first guest here. This is Christie O'Leary. She is the founder and CEO of decade impact, and we're going to talk about what decade is. It's a very unique and incredible organization. We here at all purpose, have worked extensively with Christy for years. So I'll start off by welcoming you. Thank you so much for joining us here at up to so good. Thank you, because we're all up to so

Kristy O'Leary  1:19  

good. I feel like this is, this is the right time I'm also up to so good. This is how we know each other. And so really excited to be here with you today.

Leena Manro  1:29  

So why don't you tell us a bit about, you know, what you do, and what decade is all about, and how it is up to so good.

Kristy O'Leary  1:36  

Thank you. I think the simplest explanation of what decade is, is that, you know, we're a boutique impact management consulting firm, okay,

Leena Manro  1:45  

but what does that mean? Impact management so

Kristy O'Leary  1:48  

management consultants exist. They help companies run better in quotes, and we are focused on helping companies design, develop, reveal purpose, and then align all of their business activities with that purpose. And really focused on helping companies deliver more than just profit, more than just a product or a service into the market. We're really focused on helping companies understand the true value that they're creating and offering the world.

Leena Manro  2:25  

Why the name decade?

Kristy O'Leary  2:29  

I'm sure we all remember that in 2018 there were a lot of headlines. I think it was around September, 2018 we have 12 years to stop runaway climate change. And that really got me thinking I'd been in the game for a long time before that, but I kept kind of feeling like, as we came up to 2020, I was like, we really, this is the last decade we have. It's a little bit dark, that's dark, full,

Leena Manro  2:59  

that's dark, exciting, okay, but what go deeper? So tell me this is the last decade we have before. I'll just goes club bluey. It's all gone

Kristy O'Leary  3:07  

before. We are the coyote that ran off the cliff and is kind of like still running right in the air, but doesn't know that soon as you look down, and

Leena Manro  3:16  

that's a throwback to cartoons in

Kristy O'Leary  3:18  

like, the 80s. Oh, wow, yeah. I'm dating myself, yeah. So I feel like decade was like, this is the last decade where we get to really alter the course of human history and our the Anthropocene, the our impact on the planet in a hopeful way. This is why we do this

Leena Manro  3:43  

with hope and joy. Well,

Kristy O'Leary  3:47  

with delight, delight,

Leena Manro  3:48  

I hope so, yeah, yes, yeah. I don't think that that's too dark. I think that's that's part of the reality that we're facing as a global community, which is why the work that you do is so important. It's so so powerful. So tell me so when you talk about helping clients, and am I, am I stating this right sort of align to their actual purpose? Is that right? Yep. And so how does that purpose? Well, how do you do that? First of all,

Kristy O'Leary  4:17  

hmm, often we take companies through kind of an immersive process, I know we did with with all purpose. We call it mobilize, and that can take anywhere between six months and a year, and we kind of do this incredible deep dive with companies. And I think ultimately it follows a very simple process build awareness and understand today's impact. Where are you right now? Does that align with where you think you are? Let's find that alignment through building systems, processes, policies, programs within companies to improve their. Impact. And through that process, we take teams together that kind of CO create the future of the business. Let's talk about

Leena Manro  5:11  

the stakeholder benefiting the stakeholders, shared value there, versus the traditional definition of what a business is, which is shareholder value? Yeah,

Kristy O'Leary  5:24  

so I think so let's get into that. So there's a few pieces there. This idea that, like shareholder primacy, the per the business of business is business, the only reason, the only, the only function of a business is to create value for shareholders. That's not actually an old concept that really came to like it's always kind of existed in one way or another, because there have been like robber barons since the beginning of any kind of capitalism. So folks think that business has been kind of inherently bad since it started, and some of it has been, yeah, but this rise of like shareholder dominance really happened with Milton Friedman in the 70s. The business of business is business, but that is not necessarily how most businesses are actually run. You know, we all grew up in communities with the local businesses that you know, you felt they cared and they were a part of the fabric of the community. So I feel like we hear a lot of this kind of shareholder primacy and this focus on profit at all costs. We do. We see it on the news all the time, but you know, that's not actually the real history of business. And so two things, well,

Leena Manro  6:44  

it definitely doesn't have to be absolutely the way businesses are run. And

Kristy O'Leary  6:48  

there's, there's great examples. An example I use all the time is madam CJ Walker's wonderful hair grower. You can watch mini series about her, sorry, hair like, hair grower, hair grower, okay, she was the first female millionaire in the United States. She's an African American woman. She employed 50,000 folks of color in her business. Grow was for hair serum, right? So, you know. And that was 100 years ago. So there's like the history of business is actually for the most part. You know, most businesses are, are, are pretty good.

Leena Manro  7:29  

I know. I don't know. I feel

Leena Manro  7:32  

like the bigger they are, the harder things

Leena Manro  7:34  

get, well, and also, maybe now you want to increase shareholder value. What are you going to do? You will cut costs, absolutely will you will drive profit even if you're harming the planet, even if you're harming people, right? Because that will increase shareholder value, that that's

Kristy O'Leary  7:48  

it, and top line growth, some costs, right? Like we know Exxon knew about climate change

Leena Manro  7:53  

for decades, yes, where businesses have made the decision that it is cheaper to say, face lawsuits or pay fines than it is to do the right thing. Okay, sure. Why is that? The motivation? There is shareholder value, yeah, until that changes. You know, like when we think of the stakeholder we're thinking, define stakeholders? Sure,

Kristy O'Leary  8:11  

and stakeholders are anyone who affects or is affected by your business. So rather than the shareholders, who are the owners? Who are the people at the top of the pile? Right? Stakeholders include everyone, everyone. And I'll include a salmon, I'll include a forest. Yes, those are stakeholders. Planet is a stakeholder. The planet is a state. Absolutely. It's everyone. And the point of kind of stakeholder focused business is to create value across that spectrum. Yeah. And so when we think about a stakeholder, stakeholder primacy, right then it's a natural kind of transition into what B Corp is.

Leena Manro  8:48  

Kristy and Kristy's team really helped our company not just become a B Corp. We were very much operating in a way that a B Corp ought to operate. But I feel like you really helped focus us, like you did a lot of team building events, and really helped us understand, you know, more than just a stamp, the B Corp is so much more than that. You really helped us understand what a B Corp is in its soul, well.

Kristy O'Leary  9:14  

And I think that alignment on purpose kind of makes you feel like, like a little band of a motley crew of like activists, in a sense, yeah, trying to do something that is feels unusual.

Leena Manro  9:32  

What exactly is a B Corp? So a

Kristy O'Leary  9:36  

B Corp, B Corp is three things. It is a very rigorous assessment to help companies understand what's impactful and what's maybe not, and what's aligned with that stakeholder focus, that creation of shared value, and what's not. So it's a business assessment, it's a third party verify. Certification, and it's a social movement. So there are around 9400 B Corps in the world today, but there are 300,000 plus companies that are using the assessment to help kind of build better practices and and understand their baseline, understand kind of where they're, where they're, how they are operating, and if they're aligned with these new standards. Okay?

Leena Manro  10:26  

And so this, this is a third party. It's B Lab, yes, comes out with the standards. And just just for the audience's benefit, can you give me an example of some high profile B Corp companies in the

Kristy O'Leary  10:39  

world? Well, Patagonia, I think, which everyone knows, every like wants to be Patagonia, yeah, Ben and Jerry's, all purpose, all purpose, our company, all purpose. So many,

Leena Manro  10:54  

decade, decade,

Kristy O'Leary  10:56  

decade, Coast Capital, right,

Leena Manro  10:59  

a federal

Kristy O'Leary  11:00  

credit union, Canada, the known Yes, dairy, dairy company, yeah. So there's, there's many, many

Leena Manro  11:09  

and there they can be huge, and they can be very, very small, yeah. And so the rigorous testing, sort of the standardization is the same, though, yeah.

Kristy O'Leary  11:17  

And the standard as it exists today, measures impact across five key areas, governance. Governance really is, like, who is a seat at the table? How does that? How does, what are the ethics and kind of transparency and, like, how does that business function in that

Leena Manro  11:31  

way? And we're talking about, like, we're talking about D and I, we're talking about that. It's

Kristy O'Leary  11:36  

a bit of it, yeah, okay, that's, it's kind of dei lives everywhere. Oh, I see, I see, like, equity lives in, almost with in every practice. Okay, of of this, this standard, so governance is kind of like, how, at the high level the business functions, workers, what's the experience of workers? Community? How are you involved in community, environment? What is your impact on the environment and customers? Dei lives in all those places. Supply chain lives in all those places. The standard is actually changing. That's a conversation for another day. It's going to be expanding to nine categories from five. It's a huge change that's happening. Let's just stay in version. Let's

Leena Manro  12:18  

just say this version right now, right now. But even in this version, a lot of people might not know this, but to become a B Corp, you have to re qualify every three years. Yes, and the standards actually do change, because they are determined by the current sort of climate. World. Climate, in a way, isn't that right? And they're

Kristy O'Leary  12:36  

always updating, yeah, right. They're always updating the standard to make it more toothy, okay, and so, so that's kind of like the general, like, what B Corp is. But the magic of B Corp, the actual magical part of this tool, we think of it as a blueprint, like a decade. We kind of consider it a blueprint for better practices. But unlike many, there are many frameworks that will measure the impact of a company. B Corp is unique in that it measures everything against revenue. So you can have a purpose and say, you know, we're in business to save kittens, right? But if you can't see saving kittens in your revenue, then you're not aligned with your purpose, or your green washing, right? Kitten washing, kitten washing, right? So this, so I think all purpose, if I recall, is, you know, you have the impact business models like support for purpose driven enterprises. You have education, because you do so much work, you know, internally at Brands, helping them educate their teams and building that kind of programming. Yep.

Leena Manro  13:56  

And the thing is, like, look, not all impact companies need to be B Corp. But B Corp is like one avenue, one path. It's very rigorous, because I think isn't it? Tell me if this is still correct, but I remember, we certified in 2020, and recertified last year, and wasn't it, you were up to 200 points, and you had to get minimum 80 in the scoring. So has that changed?

Kristy O'Leary  14:19  

We don't talk about a maximum. Oh, so, so one of the things so right now the highest scoring B Corp in the world. So you do need that 80 points minimum to become a to become a B Corp. And a traditional company is operating around, like that mining company, right? They're probably like a 25 or 30. And then you think about, you know, kind of like nice companies. They're like, you know, 60, 6070, so 80 is a very high bar, yeah. But then you get into these other, like, Level Ups. So Dr bronners, right, currently is the highest scoring B Corp in the

Leena Manro  14:55  

world. I'm not surprised. Dr Bronner is just some amazing stuff. So

Kristy O'Leary  15:00  

they kind of like, broke the assessment, broke the internet, and they scored 206 points. Okay, wow. But interestingly enough, again, B Corp nerd here, if, if you go back and look at their previous certifications, right, every time they recertified, their score has gone up, but also they've activated, activated more of those impact business models. So as they're doing these recertifications, again, like the magic of B Corp is, they're using it as a blueprint to build better practices, right? And so I think that's a really important piece, is that this isn't just a certification that's going to you know that you can slap on your a logo on something, right? It's actually a tool to help you improve practices if you choose to use it that way.

Leena Manro  15:51  

Well, I think I've heard it said that B Corp certification just just again, because for many people, they're still, they're still fuzzy about what it is. I think a lot of B to B companies will definitely know we talked about this before. A lot more will know than than maybe the average consumer, yeah, and I think, I think it's just a matter of time, but, but the average consumer does know what organic certified is. And I've heard that as kind of like an interesting comparison, where organic certified is to say, produce B, B certification is to corporations. Okay,

Kristy O'Leary  16:26  

so in a good I'll go a little bit deeper there. Okay, this is a good segue. Okay, so if we think about, you know, let's think about organic fair trade, right? Carbon neutral, Leaping Bunny, all these different Cradle to Cradle, all these different certifications. B Corp is, like, the one certification to rule them all. Yes,

Leena Manro  16:48  

so earlier, you had mentioned Ben and Jerry's, and there's some stuff like, I actually, I know, I know Ben and Jerry's is, is an incredible B Corp, and has been for a long time. But there's some stuff the public doesn't really know about what a good company they are. Can you elaborate? Well,

Kristy O'Leary  17:02  

Ben and Jerry's, there's all kinds of amazing things to know about Ben and Jerry's. They started they create, I forget what they call them, their social environmental action reports, seer reports. They've been creating impact reports since 1989 so you can just go onto their website and track their performance since 1989 which is

Leena Manro  17:26  

like amazing. You were saying they were kind of the OG in anti racism. So they were the OG.

Kristy O'Leary  17:31  

Wow, they are. They have been an anti racist organization since the very beginning, and they kind of have set the standard for how brands can engage in social justice in a way that is sensitive and effective and deeply collaborative. Yeah, so they've done a ton of work with various different organizations. Oftentimes like their flavors, they have, like, yeah, no, they had, like, a, you know, they introduced a Black Lives Matter flavor in 2020, which they're just the best, like, they're, yeah, they're really amazing. I

Leena Manro  18:12  

mean, that is, that's kind of, when you said B, Corp is three things, you know, it is, say it again, the it's

Kristy O'Leary  18:18  

a, it's a, an assessment, assessment, a certification, certification,

Leena Manro  18:23  

social movement and a social movement, I love that become as a social movement now, like, if you put this into perspective, Ben and Jerry's makes ice cream, yeah, and yet, they're also an activist company, yeah. I mean, like, That is incredible. That was, like, a social movement fueled by, uh, sweets, by ice cream, by joy, by the thing that you consume, that you've consumed as a child, that just elicits joy, like there's no, you know, you don't have to necessarily have I think anger can be very helpful in a motivating force. It can, yeah, absolutely, yeah. But that isn't always fun. Yeah, exactly. Fun. Can and and delight, joy can and unification can and love can, these can also be deeply, deeply motivating, yeah, and, and, kind of like the underpinnings of an activist movement, for sure.

Kristy O'Leary  19:09  

And if you look at Dr Bronner's, yeah, like, They're an amazing brand, like their work for LGBTQ plus rights, yeah, like, that's integrated into everything they do. So

Leena Manro  19:22  

Dr Bronner's is really interesting because, again, it's like, okay, I love that. With Ben and Jerry's, we've got ice cream and we've got social activism, you wouldn't see those things paired with Dr bronners, you have faith as the core component. They are, you know, un sort of,

Kristy O'Leary  19:39  

they are unapologetically faith based. Yes, they

Leena Manro  19:43  

own their spirituality. They own their faith. Yeah. And it's such an, such an all inclusive, kind loving faith, that they don't use faith to divide. I mean, like, wow. And I mean, I met, I met the current CEO, who's the grandson of the the founder. And the circle that they were in, like we connected for a few different a few different events. We kind of knew people who knew each other and actually met them. They actually exude such kindness, and they use faith as a way to unite, not to divide. It's so beautiful. Yeah,

Kristy O'Leary  20:15  

absolutely. And, and I think in America, it is a revolutionary act to be a faith based company, yes, and have soap parties and pride parades. Yes, that's a revolutionary act. And like they're they're doing amazing things, but there's so many brands like Patagonia. Everybody knows, yes, Patagonia is in business to save our home planet. Yeah.

Leena Manro  20:37  

And even

Kristy O'Leary  20:38  

recent purpose trust, even

Leena Manro  20:40  

recently, let's talk about the movement of Patagonia to basically to the employees. Yeah,

Kristy O'Leary  20:46  

purpose trust, so not quite to employees. Oh, okay, it's a little bit different, right? So I love this, and I can't remember names. I'm bad with names, but the story of the gentleman that was the first person to run the four minute mile, okay? No, it can't happen. No human can run a four minute mile. It happened in, I don't know, like 1920 within 12 months, a dozen other people had broken the four minute mile. It's that mental limitation, yes, on what's possible, right? And I think Patagonia did exactly the same thing. So they were trying to find a way to have the company continue beyond the ownership of Yvonne Chouinard and the family, right? And so they created this. Now it's complicated legal structure. They created this purpose trust. So a portion of the business went into the business went into the purpose trust. So they gave a billion dollars to this trust. The the winner family gave away their value, a billion dollars. So they shifted this value into this purpose trust, where a percentage goes towards, quite a significant percentage goes towards environmental charities, right and environmental activist organizations that are trying to save the planet. But the it is controlled by a nonprofit now, which, since they've done that now there are actually consultancies that have popped up to help folks understand companies, understand how to build those similar structures. So again, like Patagonia, just leading, always leading, always

Leena Manro  22:32  

leading. But again, this is a business that they sell active wear and clothes and things like. It's just, it's just beautiful. How the businesses that you you wouldn't necessarily see connected to their particular cause. They can work towards the per their actual purpose is for these other causes. You can sell ice cream, you can make soap, you can make winter jackets, you can do all these things. You can profit, and you can save the world. Absolutely

Kristy O'Leary  22:58  

beautiful. And I think what's interesting about Patagonia is that everybody knows Patagonia. They sell jackets, but a lot of folks aren't aware of their new business line, which is provisions. Patagonia provisions, which is a regenerative, organic food company. So they sell food that is produced in a regenerative, organic way. We lose topsoil, we lose everything. And so, you know, Chouinard, you know, I think I'm not going to get the quote right, I'm paraphrasing. But you know, at Patagonia, we make products so that people buy a new jacket every 10 years. But if you really want to save the planet, it's about food, and people eat three times a day. So let's get create that impact in those places. Yeah, because folks are there's a continual kind of feedback loop there. Yeah, and those activities to help drive their their impact amazing. So they're amazing, but there's tons of amazing companies that are doing incredible things that are not B Corps, no,

Leena Manro  24:00  

that's so true. That's true. I think what I also, I just, I find fascinating, is this, when you focus on purpose, it doesn't actually have to do necessarily with the thing you're making. You could be making widgets, but your purpose might be saving the planet. Yeah, you could be making widgets. Your purpose might be combating food scarcity, sure, right?

Kristy O'Leary  24:21  

And I think we should use purpose or that as a North Star to help direct the activities that make that product a thing. And I will say some products, some services, ought not exist. And that is fair, okay, that is fair. I think some things ought not exist, right? Like, I don't know why fidget spinners are a thing. I think they're stupid. I think they don't add a lot of value to the world. Sorry, fidget spinner people, but

Leena Manro  24:50  

they just accumulate waste and they're gonna

Kristy O'Leary  24:52  

go to a landfill. Yeah. So I don't love that, right? But I think for the most part, most companies, you can find a. Path to better practices, to more positive impact, less negative impact, right? And B Corp as an assessment, is a great blueprint to help build those practices and understand where to even start.

Leena Manro  25:16  

I really want people to know what a B Corp is. It is true. It is not the only path to impact businesses. And there's a lot of good, you know, good businesses out there, but it is definitely one way to distinguish because, you know, B labs done the work, they've certified this company. And when you vote, when you when you purchase or use a service that is certified B Corp, you know, you you can, for the most part, you're voting with your dollars, you can say, Look, I'm gonna support a business. Yeah, that is has, basically, is certified in that they are doing some good for the people and or the planet, yeah, and

Kristy O'Leary  25:51  

it's voluntary, right? Like, it's the fact that it's voluntary, and it can be hugely resource intensive for companies to do this.

Leena Manro  25:59  

Yes, we know this first hand, right? It's very expensive, so it's not

Kristy O'Leary  26:03  

the easiest way, it's not the it's not the easy way, no, so, but I think it is a, it can be a unifying force within companies like unifying. There's,

Leena Manro  26:16  

there's also a flip side to this, and it is that okay? So before we actually formed all purpose, we had been working as a team one of our other founders, who's now our CEO. He had, his name is Robin Ashmore, and he had been talking about, we love Robin. He's a sweetie pie. Robin. Hey Robin. He's up to, so good. Okay, so he's up to, he brought in this idea B Corp to us. We didn't know, I didn't fully even know what he was talking about. And when we started researching, we were like, oh gosh, yeah, this, this feels like a strong like a North Star for us to really, you know, focus our energies, you know, and we want to do this. But the thing is, that's before really anybody was talking about it. I feel like people started talking a bit more about B Corp only in the last few years, and still, many people do not know what it

Kristy O'Leary  27:03  

is. And a lot of companies that are not saying anything need to, like, stop the green blushing, which is

Leena Manro  27:08  

the other side of that green blushing. What is this? What is this? It's

Kristy O'Leary  27:12  

when companies, just, like, refuse to talk about the impact they're creating. The companies

Leena Manro  27:17  

that are doing good, that are refusing to say that, hey, we're up to so good they're for you. Except on our show, I

Kristy O'Leary  27:24  

talked to, I talked to a fella today from a company in in Alberta, and he was like, Oh, we do a lot of philanthropy, but we would never talk about it. And I'm like, Oh, stop green blushing, right? Like, if you're doing it, talk about it. Don't overstate it. But, you know, don't brag about it. Talk about it. I think what companies should be focused on is conspicuous impact. Okay, if you're doing stuff, make it a part of your marketing in the right sized way. But really talk about it. Because what I hear often is companies that are good, they're like, well, we keep doing all this stuff and nobody cares. And I'm like, well, because you're not telling anybody

Leena Manro  28:01  

knows these are you're changing your show. Come on our show. We'll talk about it. Good is going to

Kristy O'Leary  28:07  

be different for every single company, totally. And I think that is the delightful part of the journey, is identifying, almost without fail, every company that we have ever worked with comes to us, and in some areas, they're much better than they thought they were, right? And then some areas were like, We're gonna fix that. Okay?

Leena Manro  28:26  

But companies, however, that are doing, you know, things in the impact space, yeah, just by definition, being the companies that care to do those things, they don't really care about broadcasting it. So there's that aspect too, right? So there is that clean version they don't want to brag. And today, they do need to. They need to share this information because, you know, it's also about inspiring others to take these steps and

Kristy O'Leary  28:48  

right, not just inspiring, yeah, but giving permission, right, for other people to do a thing, to be so bold as to think that they could use a profit generating business as something that can produce something good beyond just what's good for them. Yeah? Like, I think people really need to. So, you know what? I think we need to make space for this,

Leena Manro  29:07  

and I think we need to, yeah, we definitely need to make space for it, but we need to find those organizations, and that's part of what we're doing with this, this podcast, find it and share each other's stories. Because we're having such a yeah, we're having a hard time sharing our own story. Let's just share each other's stories. Let's amplify our voices together. I do, I do notice, from my own observation that Canadians tend to hold back, just in general, a little bit more than our American friends. No,

Kristy O'Leary  29:32  

really, no. Sorry. I don't want

Leena Manro  29:34  

to be harsh on Did you say sorry? We are like, we are a very unique culture. But

Kristy O'Leary  29:39  

I will say this. I will say this, yeah,

Kristy O'Leary  29:43  

that there is a myth that, that, you know, there's this general feeling that has, it's almost a trick that's been played on us, that if you're doing good, you shouldn't talk about it. You should be anonymously, good. Mm. Yeah, meanwhile, the shareholder primacy folks are out there, pardon me, pillaging resources from future generations, and they just won't stop talking and like, kind of blatantly lying about a lot. So I think we need to kind of flip that narrative and have companies really embrace this, the storytelling and communicating what they're doing, like all this. Like, lovely, humble, your humility is not helping you save the planet is not, yes, it's not saving people in your community. Really trying to be in service of, you know, saving the planet and the people and society, we have to not be so shy, because that doesn't, that doesn't serve the greater good, and it's hard because we sat down and earlier, you said something about how you were happy. I was extroverted. The truth is I'm not. I'm not I'm doing this in service. I'm doing this because it is something that I believe in, and because it is, it is in service, you know, to the communities that you know we want to impact their listening, as well as our guests. It's not, it's not easy. It's not easy, if you're not, you know, a super extroverted person, because a lot of the the companies and the people who are in those shareholder primacy, I love that. I've never heard that term before. It means shareholder first is that it

Speaker 1  31:27  

like just their shareholders above all else. You know that that's a different motivation. The ones that are doing good aren't even motivated by that. They're not the ones who are posting really anything on their social media or on their feet. They just don't, they don't. They're not motivated by that stuff. Yeah, so we got to recognize. We got to get out of that mindset. We got to be loud and, I think loving, yeah, sure, kind and compassionate and joyful. We got to do all these things and yes, yes and yes, and bold yes and kind of irreverent. People love irreverent when it works. I don't know that word can you irreverent. Like, I'm gonna do good, okay? You're gonna say that I can't align purpose and profit and heal the world and heal people in communities while I make money. Watch me, Oh, watch that kind of irreverent. Like, the the I like that energy that like really, well, watch me do it. I'm gonna be profitable. I'm gonna save the planet. I'm gonna do it. Watch me do it. Okay, so can

Leena Manro  32:30  

I ask you hypothetically? Now, I know, from working with you, I think what we've worked together for, what 767, years, it's been a long time. Yeah, it's been a while. And in working with you, I didn't know, when we first started working together, how, how long we'd be working together. And even, you know, like, I didn't know we were peeling the onion. I didn't know how deeper we're gonna go. Like, these layers were peeling, and we were recognizing, you know, who we are as a company. What kind of impact can we have? What were we actually doing where we could be better, right? But I think as a company, our company all purpose, a creative agency, an impact oriented agency, we were, for the most part, at least our intentions were pretty strong. Values aligned, okay? There are a lot of companies out there that are not they're either harming the planet or they don't know. Yeah, they might be inadvertently harming it, or maybe actively harming it. We hear a lot about corporate greed, the evil corporation. So do you work with companies like that? This

Kristy O'Leary  33:33  

is something that we've been thinking a lot about a decade. Is we call like we I think about it as like gray industries, like working in the gray space. Okay,

Leena Manro  33:43  

can you, can you give me an example, without naming anyone, so without naming companies, who the bad guys? Well,

Kristy O'Leary  33:52  

the the bad guys. And I guess, have you seen the good place?

Leena Manro  34:00  

Oh, yeah, the TV show, The Good Place. Yeah, I like it. So I love the good place

Kristy O'Leary  34:03  

because it's like, I don't want to spoiler, right? The Good Place isn't really real because it's so hard to get you can't get into heaven anymore, because the the system capitalism, is engineered in a way that we had to create this alternative good place so that you think you're going to heaven.

Leena Manro  34:20  

And just for the background, for the audience, The Good Place is a TV show really all about the afterlife, and kind of, in quotes, heaven, the good place, whether it exists or not, and what that is actually like. So, so I think,

Kristy O'Leary  34:32  

like, I think that to understand what's kind of green or gray, or what's within this space, it's really complicated, because we all want simple answers. But the reality is, we live in a very complex system. And although, when I was in my 20s, I was an anarchist, I'm not anymore, so I want us to have this like ride the wave. Of changes that are coming today to the world in a way that is productive and helpful and helps individual people feel deeper meaning in their lives. So there's one example of a company we don't work with them, and maybe they'll hear this, so they'll know how much? Okay, that's all right. I love them. So they are not directly an extractive company, okay? They they are a company that serves mining companies. They don't mine gotcha, but they build robots that ensure that tailings ponds are secure and that we don't have environmental disasters because tailings ponds fail. Now, I think they are an absolutely fascinating company, okay,

Leena Manro  35:47  

tailing sponsors

Kristy O'Leary  35:48  

are what? Tailings ponds? Sorry, maybe that's tailings ponds.

Leena Manro  35:52  

I don't know what that is. All of the

Kristy O'Leary  35:55  

what's left over after mining, what's left over, okay, after that

Leena Manro  36:00  

process environmental damage, that's called tailing spawns, and those

Kristy O'Leary  36:03  

tailings ponds are often where that stuff, the goo, is left. Okay? After extractive companies Pull what they want out of the earth, okay. Now these ponds are often very close to indigenous communities. They're, you know, in Dan, in in fragile ecosystems, so we need to make sure that they're safe and that they're contained. And I so I don't want to work for the mining company, but that robot company, like sign us up. We love that, yeah, because, you know, they may think we serve mining companies, and the reframe is, no, you actually serve indigenous communities like your so I think that one of the big benefits of doing this work is finding those reframes like folks often, yeah, are unsure of how they're creating value, and that that process of value creation is very different for every organization. And I feel like when you're up to so good, you are creating these unique, interesting alternative kinds of value, yeah.

Leena Manro  37:12  

And I think the world is, you know, often, as you said before, we're looking for sometimes simple answers on these not so simple, very complex problems. And also, I think people are very polarized in black and white in their thinking of what's good, what's bad. And

Kristy O'Leary  37:26  

you know our mantra really well, our our mantra is perfect as the enemy of good, like we are not interested in perfection. It is not real. It does not exist. If, if folks are driving themselves towards perfection, like it is a you're you will fail, and so forget perfection. We're looking at progress. I think ultimately, one of the benefits of doing this work, or engaging in this kind of like purpose refinement and being better, and understanding where good exists in a company and how to kind of grow that, I think the ultimate benefit to the company, is that, you know, some folks go to work to make media, yes, um, and that's good, but if folks go to work and make media in service of Healing the planet, that's better. And so I think ultimately companies that want to do this work and do it very effectively need to be able to create that through line between the revenue generating activities of that business and this big concept of leaving the world better in one way, or the world better Absolutely, absolutely. And we're seeing, and this is the beauty is we're seeing this transition from like shareholder primacy to stakeholder primacy. And I think that is fundamentally what's driving the B Corp movement, is this shift away from the concentration of wealth for a very few to this creation of shared value for the many. Can

Leena Manro  39:06  

you be purposeful and and profitable at the same time? Yes or No? And why or why not? Absolutely

Kristy O'Leary  39:14  

yes. And I maybe this is a silly response, but like, why not? Well, like, the

Leena Manro  39:24  

not the not a lot. I think a lot of people don't think they can. I think that's what it is, but a lot of people,

Kristy O'Leary  39:32  

one of the things we hear all the time is we say, look at this practice. You have that's impact. And they're like, but that's just how we do it. So I guess the takeaway for folks listening is take some time with yourself to interrogate what it is you do in your business that you think is just but that's just how we do it. But that might actually be really. Impactful, right?

Leena Manro  40:00  

So full for your team, it could be impactful for for the end user, for the client, for this, for the world, for the planet, yeah, so I think that the world is at this point where it's going to be, you can't afford not to do it, because, right, when you've got two competitors, and one is actually working in this impact space, and it doesn't even have to be their end product. You know, look at Dr Bronner's soap. It is a good product. Okay, sure, it's a great product. It's got really good ingredients. But they're, they're using that product to drive income and money, to really send a message and to be activists. So that's, that's one way of doing it, however. You know, when you look and you compare, you know, more and more people are going to want to want to spend money on that soap, sure, those soaps that care. So

Kristy O'Leary  40:44  

a great example are Tom's shoes. They used to have, they've changed their model. They used to have a one for one, you buy a pair of shoes. Someone else in the world gets a pair of shoes that does not have shoes that's amazing, or a new pair of shoes. And I think that was a really powerful experience for consumers. You know, because it's more than a shoe, they're no longer just putting on a shoe there. There's this whole other experience happening for them when there's almost like a it's almost like the multiverse, like they're putting on those shoes, and they can picture someone else, somewhere else, putting on those shoes, and they're having this moment with someone they're never gonna, ever meet in person, but they get to have this moment and this kind of like truth of this model that that Tom's kind of represented like that they put forward at that time, beautiful.

Leena Manro  41:34  

Well, I want to, I want to thank you so much. Our wonderful guest, Chris, Christie O'Leary, you are doing so much good, up to so good. Christy O'Leary at decade, decade impact, decade and up to so good. People can check it on your website. They can What's your website? Decade impact.com, yes. And can they follow you on social media? Not know, because you don't want to. Are you green blushing? Come on, man,

Kristy O'Leary  42:02  

I just have I'm not good at I'm not good at the I'm not good I'm maybe I am green blushing. Yeah, I

Leena Manro  42:10  

think you're green blushing, because you well, you're red blushing in front of me right now, Am I really a little bit blushy? Oh, like, just so good. Any final thoughts, any parting words of advice for business owners and well, any stakeholder that's looking and thinking about profit and good business and how those two intersect.

Kristy O'Leary  42:29  

Okay, shamelessly, I will say some of the things to do. Engage your team in a process. Engage your team in a process of, what's the future of our business? What's our impact look like? You'll lower your attrition, you'll increase your engagement, you'll increase productivity in your team every time. Resource, resource it, if you're going to do this work, resource it, you have an accountant, you have a lawyer. Resource it, get the right people that know what they're doing to make it simple, beautiful process for you. And don't fear the shadows. If you find things in your business that make you uncomfortable, then, like, slow and steady, change it.

Leena Manro  43:15  

Oh, I like that. Own it. Own it.

Kristy O'Leary  43:19  

Change it. Yeah, do what you need to do amazing. Talk about wins and losses. People care about the journey. People don't just want your like tagline. They want to know the story. I

Leena Manro  43:31  

love it again. We've got Christy O'Leary here from decade impact, because she's definitely someone who's up to so good.

Kristy O'Leary  43:40  

Leena and are in love. Well,

Leena Manro  43:43  

that's all the time we have for today's show. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you've enjoyed the show, please subscribe, hit the like button or share an episode. And if you have any feedback, questions or comments or show ideas, you can email us directly at Hello at all purpose.io. Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time you.

Leena Manro  0:00

Welcome to up to so good, the podcast that unlocks the secrets of creating a purpose driven business so we can all make this world a better place. Come join the conversation. Hello and welcome to up to so good, the podcast that explores the purpose of business. Our next guest is an all purpose favorite. Her name is Christy O'Leary, and she's ahead of decade impact. And Christy is somebody who designs impact strategies for businesses, but she really helps share how purpose and profit can go hand in hand. Also in this episode, we're going to talk a lot about B Corp. So if you are a business owner or a business leader who is interested in becoming a B Corp, or as a consumer, wanting to know more about what is this whole B Corp thing, then this episode is definitely for you enjoy. Welcome to up to so good the podcast that explores the purpose of business. I'd like to introduce you to my first guest here. This is Christie O'Leary. She is the founder and CEO of decade impact, and we're going to talk about what decade is. It's a very unique and incredible organization. We here at all purpose, have worked extensively with Christy for years. So I'll start off by welcoming you. Thank you so much for joining us here at up to so good. Thank you, because we're all up to so

Kristy O'Leary  1:19  

good. I feel like this is, this is the right time I'm also up to so good. This is how we know each other. And so really excited to be here with you today.

Leena Manro  1:29  

So why don't you tell us a bit about, you know, what you do, and what decade is all about, and how it is up to so good.

Kristy O'Leary  1:36  

Thank you. I think the simplest explanation of what decade is, is that, you know, we're a boutique impact management consulting firm, okay,

Leena Manro  1:45  

but what does that mean? Impact management so

Kristy O'Leary  1:48  

management consultants exist. They help companies run better in quotes, and we are focused on helping companies design, develop, reveal purpose, and then align all of their business activities with that purpose. And really focused on helping companies deliver more than just profit, more than just a product or a service into the market. We're really focused on helping companies understand the true value that they're creating and offering the world.

Leena Manro  2:25  

Why the name decade?

Kristy O'Leary  2:29  

I'm sure we all remember that in 2018 there were a lot of headlines. I think it was around September, 2018 we have 12 years to stop runaway climate change. And that really got me thinking I'd been in the game for a long time before that, but I kept kind of feeling like, as we came up to 2020, I was like, we really, this is the last decade we have. It's a little bit dark, that's dark, full,

Leena Manro  2:59  

that's dark, exciting, okay, but what go deeper? So tell me this is the last decade we have before. I'll just goes club bluey. It's all gone

Kristy O'Leary  3:07  

before. We are the coyote that ran off the cliff and is kind of like still running right in the air, but doesn't know that soon as you look down, and

Leena Manro  3:16  

that's a throwback to cartoons in

Kristy O'Leary  3:18  

like, the 80s. Oh, wow, yeah. I'm dating myself, yeah. So I feel like decade was like, this is the last decade where we get to really alter the course of human history and our the Anthropocene, the our impact on the planet in a hopeful way. This is why we do this

Leena Manro  3:43  

with hope and joy. Well,

Kristy O'Leary  3:47  

with delight, delight,

Leena Manro  3:48  

I hope so, yeah, yes, yeah. I don't think that that's too dark. I think that's that's part of the reality that we're facing as a global community, which is why the work that you do is so important. It's so so powerful. So tell me so when you talk about helping clients, and am I, am I stating this right sort of align to their actual purpose? Is that right? Yep. And so how does that purpose? Well, how do you do that? First of all,

Kristy O'Leary  4:17  

hmm, often we take companies through kind of an immersive process, I know we did with with all purpose. We call it mobilize, and that can take anywhere between six months and a year, and we kind of do this incredible deep dive with companies. And I think ultimately it follows a very simple process build awareness and understand today's impact. Where are you right now? Does that align with where you think you are? Let's find that alignment through building systems, processes, policies, programs within companies to improve their. Impact. And through that process, we take teams together that kind of CO create the future of the business. Let's talk about

Leena Manro  5:11  

the stakeholder benefiting the stakeholders, shared value there, versus the traditional definition of what a business is, which is shareholder value? Yeah,

Kristy O'Leary  5:24  

so I think so let's get into that. So there's a few pieces there. This idea that, like shareholder primacy, the per the business of business is business, the only reason, the only, the only function of a business is to create value for shareholders. That's not actually an old concept that really came to like it's always kind of existed in one way or another, because there have been like robber barons since the beginning of any kind of capitalism. So folks think that business has been kind of inherently bad since it started, and some of it has been, yeah, but this rise of like shareholder dominance really happened with Milton Friedman in the 70s. The business of business is business, but that is not necessarily how most businesses are actually run. You know, we all grew up in communities with the local businesses that you know, you felt they cared and they were a part of the fabric of the community. So I feel like we hear a lot of this kind of shareholder primacy and this focus on profit at all costs. We do. We see it on the news all the time, but you know, that's not actually the real history of business. And so two things, well,

Leena Manro  6:44  

it definitely doesn't have to be absolutely the way businesses are run. And

Kristy O'Leary  6:48  

there's, there's great examples. An example I use all the time is madam CJ Walker's wonderful hair grower. You can watch mini series about her, sorry, hair like, hair grower, hair grower, okay, she was the first female millionaire in the United States. She's an African American woman. She employed 50,000 folks of color in her business. Grow was for hair serum, right? So, you know. And that was 100 years ago. So there's like the history of business is actually for the most part. You know, most businesses are, are, are pretty good.

Leena Manro  7:29  

I know. I don't know. I feel

Leena Manro  7:32  

like the bigger they are, the harder things

Leena Manro  7:34  

get, well, and also, maybe now you want to increase shareholder value. What are you going to do? You will cut costs, absolutely will you will drive profit even if you're harming the planet, even if you're harming people, right? Because that will increase shareholder value, that that's

Kristy O'Leary  7:48  

it, and top line growth, some costs, right? Like we know Exxon knew about climate change

Leena Manro  7:53  

for decades, yes, where businesses have made the decision that it is cheaper to say, face lawsuits or pay fines than it is to do the right thing. Okay, sure. Why is that? The motivation? There is shareholder value, yeah, until that changes. You know, like when we think of the stakeholder we're thinking, define stakeholders? Sure,

Kristy O'Leary  8:11  

and stakeholders are anyone who affects or is affected by your business. So rather than the shareholders, who are the owners? Who are the people at the top of the pile? Right? Stakeholders include everyone, everyone. And I'll include a salmon, I'll include a forest. Yes, those are stakeholders. Planet is a stakeholder. The planet is a state. Absolutely. It's everyone. And the point of kind of stakeholder focused business is to create value across that spectrum. Yeah. And so when we think about a stakeholder, stakeholder primacy, right then it's a natural kind of transition into what B Corp is.

Leena Manro  8:48  

Kristy and Kristy's team really helped our company not just become a B Corp. We were very much operating in a way that a B Corp ought to operate. But I feel like you really helped focus us, like you did a lot of team building events, and really helped us understand, you know, more than just a stamp, the B Corp is so much more than that. You really helped us understand what a B Corp is in its soul, well.

Kristy O'Leary  9:14  

And I think that alignment on purpose kind of makes you feel like, like a little band of a motley crew of like activists, in a sense, yeah, trying to do something that is feels unusual.

Leena Manro  9:32  

What exactly is a B Corp? So a

Kristy O'Leary  9:36  

B Corp, B Corp is three things. It is a very rigorous assessment to help companies understand what's impactful and what's maybe not, and what's aligned with that stakeholder focus, that creation of shared value, and what's not. So it's a business assessment, it's a third party verify. Certification, and it's a social movement. So there are around 9400 B Corps in the world today, but there are 300,000 plus companies that are using the assessment to help kind of build better practices and and understand their baseline, understand kind of where they're, where they're, how they are operating, and if they're aligned with these new standards. Okay?

Leena Manro  10:26  

And so this, this is a third party. It's B Lab, yes, comes out with the standards. And just just for the audience's benefit, can you give me an example of some high profile B Corp companies in the

Kristy O'Leary  10:39  

world? Well, Patagonia, I think, which everyone knows, every like wants to be Patagonia, yeah, Ben and Jerry's, all purpose, all purpose, our company, all purpose. So many,

Leena Manro  10:54  

decade, decade,

Kristy O'Leary  10:56  

decade, Coast Capital, right,

Leena Manro  10:59  

a federal

Kristy O'Leary  11:00  

credit union, Canada, the known Yes, dairy, dairy company, yeah. So there's, there's many, many

Leena Manro  11:09  

and there they can be huge, and they can be very, very small, yeah. And so the rigorous testing, sort of the standardization is the same, though, yeah.

Kristy O'Leary  11:17  

And the standard as it exists today, measures impact across five key areas, governance. Governance really is, like, who is a seat at the table? How does that? How does, what are the ethics and kind of transparency and, like, how does that business function in that

Leena Manro  11:31  

way? And we're talking about, like, we're talking about D and I, we're talking about that. It's

Kristy O'Leary  11:36  

a bit of it, yeah, okay, that's, it's kind of dei lives everywhere. Oh, I see, I see, like, equity lives in, almost with in every practice. Okay, of of this, this standard, so governance is kind of like, how, at the high level the business functions, workers, what's the experience of workers? Community? How are you involved in community, environment? What is your impact on the environment and customers? Dei lives in all those places. Supply chain lives in all those places. The standard is actually changing. That's a conversation for another day. It's going to be expanding to nine categories from five. It's a huge change that's happening. Let's just stay in version. Let's

Leena Manro  12:18  

just say this version right now, right now. But even in this version, a lot of people might not know this, but to become a B Corp, you have to re qualify every three years. Yes, and the standards actually do change, because they are determined by the current sort of climate. World. Climate, in a way, isn't that right? And they're

Kristy O'Leary  12:36  

always updating, yeah, right. They're always updating the standard to make it more toothy, okay, and so, so that's kind of like the general, like, what B Corp is. But the magic of B Corp, the actual magical part of this tool, we think of it as a blueprint, like a decade. We kind of consider it a blueprint for better practices. But unlike many, there are many frameworks that will measure the impact of a company. B Corp is unique in that it measures everything against revenue. So you can have a purpose and say, you know, we're in business to save kittens, right? But if you can't see saving kittens in your revenue, then you're not aligned with your purpose, or your green washing, right? Kitten washing, kitten washing, right? So this, so I think all purpose, if I recall, is, you know, you have the impact business models like support for purpose driven enterprises. You have education, because you do so much work, you know, internally at Brands, helping them educate their teams and building that kind of programming. Yep.

Leena Manro  13:56  

And the thing is, like, look, not all impact companies need to be B Corp. But B Corp is like one avenue, one path. It's very rigorous, because I think isn't it? Tell me if this is still correct, but I remember, we certified in 2020, and recertified last year, and wasn't it, you were up to 200 points, and you had to get minimum 80 in the scoring. So has that changed?

Kristy O'Leary  14:19  

We don't talk about a maximum. Oh, so, so one of the things so right now the highest scoring B Corp in the world. So you do need that 80 points minimum to become a to become a B Corp. And a traditional company is operating around, like that mining company, right? They're probably like a 25 or 30. And then you think about, you know, kind of like nice companies. They're like, you know, 60, 6070, so 80 is a very high bar, yeah. But then you get into these other, like, Level Ups. So Dr bronners, right, currently is the highest scoring B Corp in the

Leena Manro  14:55  

world. I'm not surprised. Dr Bronner is just some amazing stuff. So

Kristy O'Leary  15:00  

they kind of like, broke the assessment, broke the internet, and they scored 206 points. Okay, wow. But interestingly enough, again, B Corp nerd here, if, if you go back and look at their previous certifications, right, every time they recertified, their score has gone up, but also they've activated, activated more of those impact business models. So as they're doing these recertifications, again, like the magic of B Corp is, they're using it as a blueprint to build better practices, right? And so I think that's a really important piece, is that this isn't just a certification that's going to you know that you can slap on your a logo on something, right? It's actually a tool to help you improve practices if you choose to use it that way.

Leena Manro  15:51  

Well, I think I've heard it said that B Corp certification just just again, because for many people, they're still, they're still fuzzy about what it is. I think a lot of B to B companies will definitely know we talked about this before. A lot more will know than than maybe the average consumer, yeah, and I think, I think it's just a matter of time, but, but the average consumer does know what organic certified is. And I've heard that as kind of like an interesting comparison, where organic certified is to say, produce B, B certification is to corporations. Okay,

Kristy O'Leary  16:26  

so in a good I'll go a little bit deeper there. Okay, this is a good segue. Okay, so if we think about, you know, let's think about organic fair trade, right? Carbon neutral, Leaping Bunny, all these different Cradle to Cradle, all these different certifications. B Corp is, like, the one certification to rule them all. Yes,

Leena Manro  16:48  

so earlier, you had mentioned Ben and Jerry's, and there's some stuff like, I actually, I know, I know Ben and Jerry's is, is an incredible B Corp, and has been for a long time. But there's some stuff the public doesn't really know about what a good company they are. Can you elaborate? Well,

Kristy O'Leary  17:02  

Ben and Jerry's, there's all kinds of amazing things to know about Ben and Jerry's. They started they create, I forget what they call them, their social environmental action reports, seer reports. They've been creating impact reports since 1989 so you can just go onto their website and track their performance since 1989 which is

Leena Manro  17:26  

like amazing. You were saying they were kind of the OG in anti racism. So they were the OG.

Kristy O'Leary  17:31  

Wow, they are. They have been an anti racist organization since the very beginning, and they kind of have set the standard for how brands can engage in social justice in a way that is sensitive and effective and deeply collaborative. Yeah, so they've done a ton of work with various different organizations. Oftentimes like their flavors, they have, like, yeah, no, they had, like, a, you know, they introduced a Black Lives Matter flavor in 2020, which they're just the best, like, they're, yeah, they're really amazing. I

Leena Manro  18:12  

mean, that is, that's kind of, when you said B, Corp is three things, you know, it is, say it again, the it's

Kristy O'Leary  18:18  

a, it's a, an assessment, assessment, a certification, certification,

Leena Manro  18:23  

social movement and a social movement, I love that become as a social movement now, like, if you put this into perspective, Ben and Jerry's makes ice cream, yeah, and yet, they're also an activist company, yeah. I mean, like, That is incredible. That was, like, a social movement fueled by, uh, sweets, by ice cream, by joy, by the thing that you consume, that you've consumed as a child, that just elicits joy, like there's no, you know, you don't have to necessarily have I think anger can be very helpful in a motivating force. It can, yeah, absolutely, yeah. But that isn't always fun. Yeah, exactly. Fun. Can and and delight, joy can and unification can and love can, these can also be deeply, deeply motivating, yeah, and, and, kind of like the underpinnings of an activist movement, for sure.

Kristy O'Leary  19:09  

And if you look at Dr Bronner's, yeah, like, They're an amazing brand, like their work for LGBTQ plus rights, yeah, like, that's integrated into everything they do. So

Leena Manro  19:22  

Dr Bronner's is really interesting because, again, it's like, okay, I love that. With Ben and Jerry's, we've got ice cream and we've got social activism, you wouldn't see those things paired with Dr bronners, you have faith as the core component. They are, you know, un sort of,

Kristy O'Leary  19:39  

they are unapologetically faith based. Yes, they

Leena Manro  19:43  

own their spirituality. They own their faith. Yeah. And it's such an, such an all inclusive, kind loving faith, that they don't use faith to divide. I mean, like, wow. And I mean, I met, I met the current CEO, who's the grandson of the the founder. And the circle that they were in, like we connected for a few different a few different events. We kind of knew people who knew each other and actually met them. They actually exude such kindness, and they use faith as a way to unite, not to divide. It's so beautiful. Yeah,

Kristy O'Leary  20:15  

absolutely. And, and I think in America, it is a revolutionary act to be a faith based company, yes, and have soap parties and pride parades. Yes, that's a revolutionary act. And like they're they're doing amazing things, but there's so many brands like Patagonia. Everybody knows, yes, Patagonia is in business to save our home planet. Yeah.

Leena Manro  20:37  

And even

Kristy O'Leary  20:38  

recent purpose trust, even

Leena Manro  20:40  

recently, let's talk about the movement of Patagonia to basically to the employees. Yeah,

Kristy O'Leary  20:46  

purpose trust, so not quite to employees. Oh, okay, it's a little bit different, right? So I love this, and I can't remember names. I'm bad with names, but the story of the gentleman that was the first person to run the four minute mile, okay? No, it can't happen. No human can run a four minute mile. It happened in, I don't know, like 1920 within 12 months, a dozen other people had broken the four minute mile. It's that mental limitation, yes, on what's possible, right? And I think Patagonia did exactly the same thing. So they were trying to find a way to have the company continue beyond the ownership of Yvonne Chouinard and the family, right? And so they created this. Now it's complicated legal structure. They created this purpose trust. So a portion of the business went into the business went into the purpose trust. So they gave a billion dollars to this trust. The the winner family gave away their value, a billion dollars. So they shifted this value into this purpose trust, where a percentage goes towards, quite a significant percentage goes towards environmental charities, right and environmental activist organizations that are trying to save the planet. But the it is controlled by a nonprofit now, which, since they've done that now there are actually consultancies that have popped up to help folks understand companies, understand how to build those similar structures. So again, like Patagonia, just leading, always leading, always

Leena Manro  22:32  

leading. But again, this is a business that they sell active wear and clothes and things like. It's just, it's just beautiful. How the businesses that you you wouldn't necessarily see connected to their particular cause. They can work towards the per their actual purpose is for these other causes. You can sell ice cream, you can make soap, you can make winter jackets, you can do all these things. You can profit, and you can save the world. Absolutely

Kristy O'Leary  22:58  

beautiful. And I think what's interesting about Patagonia is that everybody knows Patagonia. They sell jackets, but a lot of folks aren't aware of their new business line, which is provisions. Patagonia provisions, which is a regenerative, organic food company. So they sell food that is produced in a regenerative, organic way. We lose topsoil, we lose everything. And so, you know, Chouinard, you know, I think I'm not going to get the quote right, I'm paraphrasing. But you know, at Patagonia, we make products so that people buy a new jacket every 10 years. But if you really want to save the planet, it's about food, and people eat three times a day. So let's get create that impact in those places. Yeah, because folks are there's a continual kind of feedback loop there. Yeah, and those activities to help drive their their impact amazing. So they're amazing, but there's tons of amazing companies that are doing incredible things that are not B Corps, no,

Leena Manro  24:00  

that's so true. That's true. I think what I also, I just, I find fascinating, is this, when you focus on purpose, it doesn't actually have to do necessarily with the thing you're making. You could be making widgets, but your purpose might be saving the planet. Yeah, you could be making widgets. Your purpose might be combating food scarcity, sure, right?

Kristy O'Leary  24:21  

And I think we should use purpose or that as a North Star to help direct the activities that make that product a thing. And I will say some products, some services, ought not exist. And that is fair, okay, that is fair. I think some things ought not exist, right? Like, I don't know why fidget spinners are a thing. I think they're stupid. I think they don't add a lot of value to the world. Sorry, fidget spinner people, but

Leena Manro  24:50  

they just accumulate waste and they're gonna

Kristy O'Leary  24:52  

go to a landfill. Yeah. So I don't love that, right? But I think for the most part, most companies, you can find a. Path to better practices, to more positive impact, less negative impact, right? And B Corp as an assessment, is a great blueprint to help build those practices and understand where to even start.

Leena Manro  25:16  

I really want people to know what a B Corp is. It is true. It is not the only path to impact businesses. And there's a lot of good, you know, good businesses out there, but it is definitely one way to distinguish because, you know, B labs done the work, they've certified this company. And when you vote, when you when you purchase or use a service that is certified B Corp, you know, you you can, for the most part, you're voting with your dollars, you can say, Look, I'm gonna support a business. Yeah, that is has, basically, is certified in that they are doing some good for the people and or the planet, yeah, and

Kristy O'Leary  25:51  

it's voluntary, right? Like, it's the fact that it's voluntary, and it can be hugely resource intensive for companies to do this.

Leena Manro  25:59  

Yes, we know this first hand, right? It's very expensive, so it's not

Kristy O'Leary  26:03  

the easiest way, it's not the it's not the easy way, no, so, but I think it is a, it can be a unifying force within companies like unifying. There's,

Leena Manro  26:16  

there's also a flip side to this, and it is that okay? So before we actually formed all purpose, we had been working as a team one of our other founders, who's now our CEO. He had, his name is Robin Ashmore, and he had been talking about, we love Robin. He's a sweetie pie. Robin. Hey Robin. He's up to, so good. Okay, so he's up to, he brought in this idea B Corp to us. We didn't know, I didn't fully even know what he was talking about. And when we started researching, we were like, oh gosh, yeah, this, this feels like a strong like a North Star for us to really, you know, focus our energies, you know, and we want to do this. But the thing is, that's before really anybody was talking about it. I feel like people started talking a bit more about B Corp only in the last few years, and still, many people do not know what it

Kristy O'Leary  27:03  

is. And a lot of companies that are not saying anything need to, like, stop the green blushing, which is

Leena Manro  27:08  

the other side of that green blushing. What is this? What is this? It's

Kristy O'Leary  27:12  

when companies, just, like, refuse to talk about the impact they're creating. The companies

Leena Manro  27:17  

that are doing good, that are refusing to say that, hey, we're up to so good they're for you. Except on our show, I

Kristy O'Leary  27:24  

talked to, I talked to a fella today from a company in in Alberta, and he was like, Oh, we do a lot of philanthropy, but we would never talk about it. And I'm like, Oh, stop green blushing, right? Like, if you're doing it, talk about it. Don't overstate it. But, you know, don't brag about it. Talk about it. I think what companies should be focused on is conspicuous impact. Okay, if you're doing stuff, make it a part of your marketing in the right sized way. But really talk about it. Because what I hear often is companies that are good, they're like, well, we keep doing all this stuff and nobody cares. And I'm like, well, because you're not telling anybody

Leena Manro  28:01  

knows these are you're changing your show. Come on our show. We'll talk about it. Good is going to

Kristy O'Leary  28:07  

be different for every single company, totally. And I think that is the delightful part of the journey, is identifying, almost without fail, every company that we have ever worked with comes to us, and in some areas, they're much better than they thought they were, right? And then some areas were like, We're gonna fix that. Okay?

Leena Manro  28:26  

But companies, however, that are doing, you know, things in the impact space, yeah, just by definition, being the companies that care to do those things, they don't really care about broadcasting it. So there's that aspect too, right? So there is that clean version they don't want to brag. And today, they do need to. They need to share this information because, you know, it's also about inspiring others to take these steps and

Kristy O'Leary  28:48  

right, not just inspiring, yeah, but giving permission, right, for other people to do a thing, to be so bold as to think that they could use a profit generating business as something that can produce something good beyond just what's good for them. Yeah? Like, I think people really need to. So, you know what? I think we need to make space for this,

Leena Manro  29:07  

and I think we need to, yeah, we definitely need to make space for it, but we need to find those organizations, and that's part of what we're doing with this, this podcast, find it and share each other's stories. Because we're having such a yeah, we're having a hard time sharing our own story. Let's just share each other's stories. Let's amplify our voices together. I do, I do notice, from my own observation that Canadians tend to hold back, just in general, a little bit more than our American friends. No,

Kristy O'Leary  29:32  

really, no. Sorry. I don't want

Leena Manro  29:34  

to be harsh on Did you say sorry? We are like, we are a very unique culture. But

Kristy O'Leary  29:39  

I will say this. I will say this, yeah,

Kristy O'Leary  29:43  

that there is a myth that, that, you know, there's this general feeling that has, it's almost a trick that's been played on us, that if you're doing good, you shouldn't talk about it. You should be anonymously, good. Mm. Yeah, meanwhile, the shareholder primacy folks are out there, pardon me, pillaging resources from future generations, and they just won't stop talking and like, kind of blatantly lying about a lot. So I think we need to kind of flip that narrative and have companies really embrace this, the storytelling and communicating what they're doing, like all this. Like, lovely, humble, your humility is not helping you save the planet is not, yes, it's not saving people in your community. Really trying to be in service of, you know, saving the planet and the people and society, we have to not be so shy, because that doesn't, that doesn't serve the greater good, and it's hard because we sat down and earlier, you said something about how you were happy. I was extroverted. The truth is I'm not. I'm not I'm doing this in service. I'm doing this because it is something that I believe in, and because it is, it is in service, you know, to the communities that you know we want to impact their listening, as well as our guests. It's not, it's not easy. It's not easy, if you're not, you know, a super extroverted person, because a lot of the the companies and the people who are in those shareholder primacy, I love that. I've never heard that term before. It means shareholder first is that it

Speaker 1  31:27  

like just their shareholders above all else. You know that that's a different motivation. The ones that are doing good aren't even motivated by that. They're not the ones who are posting really anything on their social media or on their feet. They just don't, they don't. They're not motivated by that stuff. Yeah, so we got to recognize. We got to get out of that mindset. We got to be loud and, I think loving, yeah, sure, kind and compassionate and joyful. We got to do all these things and yes, yes and yes, and bold yes and kind of irreverent. People love irreverent when it works. I don't know that word can you irreverent. Like, I'm gonna do good, okay? You're gonna say that I can't align purpose and profit and heal the world and heal people in communities while I make money. Watch me, Oh, watch that kind of irreverent. Like, the the I like that energy that like really, well, watch me do it. I'm gonna be profitable. I'm gonna save the planet. I'm gonna do it. Watch me do it. Okay, so can

Leena Manro  32:30  

I ask you hypothetically? Now, I know, from working with you, I think what we've worked together for, what 767, years, it's been a long time. Yeah, it's been a while. And in working with you, I didn't know, when we first started working together, how, how long we'd be working together. And even, you know, like, I didn't know we were peeling the onion. I didn't know how deeper we're gonna go. Like, these layers were peeling, and we were recognizing, you know, who we are as a company. What kind of impact can we have? What were we actually doing where we could be better, right? But I think as a company, our company all purpose, a creative agency, an impact oriented agency, we were, for the most part, at least our intentions were pretty strong. Values aligned, okay? There are a lot of companies out there that are not they're either harming the planet or they don't know. Yeah, they might be inadvertently harming it, or maybe actively harming it. We hear a lot about corporate greed, the evil corporation. So do you work with companies like that? This

Kristy O'Leary  33:33  

is something that we've been thinking a lot about a decade. Is we call like we I think about it as like gray industries, like working in the gray space. Okay,

Leena Manro  33:43  

can you, can you give me an example, without naming anyone, so without naming companies, who the bad guys? Well,

Kristy O'Leary  33:52  

the the bad guys. And I guess, have you seen the good place?

Leena Manro  34:00  

Oh, yeah, the TV show, The Good Place. Yeah, I like it. So I love the good place

Kristy O'Leary  34:03  

because it's like, I don't want to spoiler, right? The Good Place isn't really real because it's so hard to get you can't get into heaven anymore, because the the system capitalism, is engineered in a way that we had to create this alternative good place so that you think you're going to heaven.

Leena Manro  34:20  

And just for the background, for the audience, The Good Place is a TV show really all about the afterlife, and kind of, in quotes, heaven, the good place, whether it exists or not, and what that is actually like. So, so I think,

Kristy O'Leary  34:32  

like, I think that to understand what's kind of green or gray, or what's within this space, it's really complicated, because we all want simple answers. But the reality is, we live in a very complex system. And although, when I was in my 20s, I was an anarchist, I'm not anymore, so I want us to have this like ride the wave. Of changes that are coming today to the world in a way that is productive and helpful and helps individual people feel deeper meaning in their lives. So there's one example of a company we don't work with them, and maybe they'll hear this, so they'll know how much? Okay, that's all right. I love them. So they are not directly an extractive company, okay? They they are a company that serves mining companies. They don't mine gotcha, but they build robots that ensure that tailings ponds are secure and that we don't have environmental disasters because tailings ponds fail. Now, I think they are an absolutely fascinating company, okay,

Leena Manro  35:47  

tailing sponsors

Kristy O'Leary  35:48  

are what? Tailings ponds? Sorry, maybe that's tailings ponds.

Leena Manro  35:52  

I don't know what that is. All of the

Kristy O'Leary  35:55  

what's left over after mining, what's left over, okay, after that

Leena Manro  36:00  

process environmental damage, that's called tailing spawns, and those

Kristy O'Leary  36:03  

tailings ponds are often where that stuff, the goo, is left. Okay? After extractive companies Pull what they want out of the earth, okay. Now these ponds are often very close to indigenous communities. They're, you know, in Dan, in in fragile ecosystems, so we need to make sure that they're safe and that they're contained. And I so I don't want to work for the mining company, but that robot company, like sign us up. We love that, yeah, because, you know, they may think we serve mining companies, and the reframe is, no, you actually serve indigenous communities like your so I think that one of the big benefits of doing this work is finding those reframes like folks often, yeah, are unsure of how they're creating value, and that that process of value creation is very different for every organization. And I feel like when you're up to so good, you are creating these unique, interesting alternative kinds of value, yeah.

Leena Manro  37:12  

And I think the world is, you know, often, as you said before, we're looking for sometimes simple answers on these not so simple, very complex problems. And also, I think people are very polarized in black and white in their thinking of what's good, what's bad. And

Kristy O'Leary  37:26  

you know our mantra really well, our our mantra is perfect as the enemy of good, like we are not interested in perfection. It is not real. It does not exist. If, if folks are driving themselves towards perfection, like it is a you're you will fail, and so forget perfection. We're looking at progress. I think ultimately, one of the benefits of doing this work, or engaging in this kind of like purpose refinement and being better, and understanding where good exists in a company and how to kind of grow that, I think the ultimate benefit to the company, is that, you know, some folks go to work to make media, yes, um, and that's good, but if folks go to work and make media in service of Healing the planet, that's better. And so I think ultimately companies that want to do this work and do it very effectively need to be able to create that through line between the revenue generating activities of that business and this big concept of leaving the world better in one way, or the world better Absolutely, absolutely. And we're seeing, and this is the beauty is we're seeing this transition from like shareholder primacy to stakeholder primacy. And I think that is fundamentally what's driving the B Corp movement, is this shift away from the concentration of wealth for a very few to this creation of shared value for the many. Can

Leena Manro  39:06  

you be purposeful and and profitable at the same time? Yes or No? And why or why not? Absolutely

Kristy O'Leary  39:14  

yes. And I maybe this is a silly response, but like, why not? Well, like, the

Leena Manro  39:24  

not the not a lot. I think a lot of people don't think they can. I think that's what it is, but a lot of people,

Kristy O'Leary  39:32  

one of the things we hear all the time is we say, look at this practice. You have that's impact. And they're like, but that's just how we do it. So I guess the takeaway for folks listening is take some time with yourself to interrogate what it is you do in your business that you think is just but that's just how we do it. But that might actually be really. Impactful, right?

Leena Manro  40:00  

So full for your team, it could be impactful for for the end user, for the client, for this, for the world, for the planet, yeah, so I think that the world is at this point where it's going to be, you can't afford not to do it, because, right, when you've got two competitors, and one is actually working in this impact space, and it doesn't even have to be their end product. You know, look at Dr Bronner's soap. It is a good product. Okay, sure, it's a great product. It's got really good ingredients. But they're, they're using that product to drive income and money, to really send a message and to be activists. So that's, that's one way of doing it, however. You know, when you look and you compare, you know, more and more people are going to want to want to spend money on that soap, sure, those soaps that care. So

Kristy O'Leary  40:44  

a great example are Tom's shoes. They used to have, they've changed their model. They used to have a one for one, you buy a pair of shoes. Someone else in the world gets a pair of shoes that does not have shoes that's amazing, or a new pair of shoes. And I think that was a really powerful experience for consumers. You know, because it's more than a shoe, they're no longer just putting on a shoe there. There's this whole other experience happening for them when there's almost like a it's almost like the multiverse, like they're putting on those shoes, and they can picture someone else, somewhere else, putting on those shoes, and they're having this moment with someone they're never gonna, ever meet in person, but they get to have this moment and this kind of like truth of this model that that Tom's kind of represented like that they put forward at that time, beautiful.

Leena Manro  41:34  

Well, I want to, I want to thank you so much. Our wonderful guest, Chris, Christie O'Leary, you are doing so much good, up to so good. Christy O'Leary at decade, decade impact, decade and up to so good. People can check it on your website. They can What's your website? Decade impact.com, yes. And can they follow you on social media? Not know, because you don't want to. Are you green blushing? Come on, man,

Kristy O'Leary  42:02  

I just have I'm not good at I'm not good at the I'm not good I'm maybe I am green blushing. Yeah, I

Leena Manro  42:10  

think you're green blushing, because you well, you're red blushing in front of me right now, Am I really a little bit blushy? Oh, like, just so good. Any final thoughts, any parting words of advice for business owners and well, any stakeholder that's looking and thinking about profit and good business and how those two intersect.

Kristy O'Leary  42:29  

Okay, shamelessly, I will say some of the things to do. Engage your team in a process. Engage your team in a process of, what's the future of our business? What's our impact look like? You'll lower your attrition, you'll increase your engagement, you'll increase productivity in your team every time. Resource, resource it, if you're going to do this work, resource it, you have an accountant, you have a lawyer. Resource it, get the right people that know what they're doing to make it simple, beautiful process for you. And don't fear the shadows. If you find things in your business that make you uncomfortable, then, like, slow and steady, change it.

Leena Manro  43:15  

Oh, I like that. Own it. Own it.

Kristy O'Leary  43:19  

Change it. Yeah, do what you need to do amazing. Talk about wins and losses. People care about the journey. People don't just want your like tagline. They want to know the story. I

Leena Manro  43:31  

love it again. We've got Christy O'Leary here from decade impact, because she's definitely someone who's up to so good.

Kristy O'Leary  43:40  

Leena and are in love. Well,

Leena Manro  43:43  

that's all the time we have for today's show. Thank you so much for joining us. And if you've enjoyed the show, please subscribe, hit the like button or share an episode. And if you have any feedback, questions or comments or show ideas, you can email us directly at Hello at all purpose.io. Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time you.

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